With a Terrible Fate

Celebrating & Analyzing Zelda's Character Ahead of Echoes of Wisdom

The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom is here! In preparation for diving into a brand-new, Zelda-centric Zelda adventure, join Dan and Aaron—neither of whom had started this new journey at the time of recording—as they return to their roots as Zelda fans and analysts, exploring the range of representations and symbolisms Princess Zelda has borne throughout the years. How can Nintendo's stance toward spin-offs and experimentation inform our approach to Echoes of Wisdom? What do Zelda's transformations across decades of games reveal about the essence of her character and the virtues undergirding Zelda's universe? What can the evolving dimensions of Zelda and Link's relationship with each other, Ganondorf, and the player illuminate about the good and bad aspects of control? Listen in and find out!

Spoilers for: Mulholland Drive, I Think You Should Leave, and The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, A Link Between Worlds, and Tears of the Kingdom.

References:

Hughes, Dan (2017). "Does The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Belong in the Video Game Canon?" With a Terrible Fate.

——— (2015). "Link the Gaijin: The Outsider God and the Hero in The Legend of Zelda." With a Terrible Fate.

Suduiko, Aaron (2015). A Comprehensive Theory of Majora's Mask. With a Terrible Fate.

——— (2020). "The Horror of Code Vein is You." With a Terrible Fate.

——— (2023). "Tales of the Abyss, Kabbalah, and Gaming as a Spiritual Act." With a Terrible Fate.

PS5 Pro and Technologies of Storytelling

What is the value of a PlayStation 5 Pro, and which console technologies beget innovations in video-game storytelling? Especially with the advent of a 30th-anniversary PS5 Pro, the time is right to dive into a conversation surveying some memorable moments in tech-grounded narrative innovations from the PS1 onward.

What difference do graphics and load time really make to interactive stories? Where do gimmicks end and innovation begin in inventions like motion-controlled peripherals and VR? How might trends in game development reveal ideals like "immersion" and a player's sense of "entitlement to the world" underlying which new technologies make it to market and which don't? As players, what creative ways can we discover to experience new design standards in our favorite series, even in the absence of a new console? Listen in and find out!

Be on the lookout for Kingdom Hearts III spoilers, as well as structural spoilers for the layout of story in Black Myth: Wu Kong. (And please forgive Aaron's Tales-addled mind misnaming the Eikons and Titan in Final Fantasy XVI!)

References

• Cohen, Skylar. "You Only Launch Once: What Game Consoles' First Titles Need to Succeed"
• Hughes, Dan. "Pokémon Rose Episode 17: 'What's That On Your Shoulder?'"
• ———. "Understanding Xemnas in Kingdom Hearts II"
• Suduiko, Aaron. A Comprehensive Theory of Majora's Mask.
• ———. "Critical Review: Okami's Lessons on Religion, Video Games, and Storytelling"
• ———. "Final Fantasy VII Remake is the Template for 'Grown-Up' JRPGs"
• ———. "Game as Mind: A Psychoanalytic Explanation of Returnal."
• ———. "The Philosophical Justification for FromSoftware's DLC"
• ———. "Scarlet Nexus: The Pathos of Karen Travers"
• ———. Tales of Praxis
• ———. "Three Core Ways the Nintendo Switch Will Make New Stories Possible"

Can Normative Inquiry Become Gaming's Next "Lore Analysis"?

The With a Terrible Fate podcast is back with a vengeance! On the heels of Aaron's relocation to Los Angeles for his PhD, we've settled into a new weekly recording time and are excited to share more regularly scheduled conversations about the storytelling of video games with you, our dear listeners.

First on the docket is a follow-up to the conversation of our last episode, which discussed the normative and metanormative content of games that tell rich, spiritually and intellectually rewarding stories far beyond the constraints of what popular culture typically has in mind when it mentions "morality in gaming." Now, we take a step back to ask whether the tools of game design could be used to actually require and motivate gamers to engage with these philosophical levels of inquiry when they wouldn't otherwise do so. Miyazaki's games trained a generation of unsuspecting gamers to become sophisticated anthropologists and historians of lore; what could come of turning these same mechanics to the domain of values and their sources?

Mind the spoilers for Elden Ring, Shadow of the Erdtree, Mass Effect 3, the Dark Souls series, Bloodborne, Spec Ops, and Undertale. Also note some spoiler-free discussion of the Ultima series and Baldur's Gate 3.

Citations:

Hughes, Dan, "The Gwyn Moment," With a Terrible Fate, 4/14/22.

Suduiko, Aaron, "Why You Must Play Tales of Hearts R 389 Times," With a Terrible Fate, 6/5/24.

Williams, Bernard, "A Critique of Utilitarianism," in Utilitarianism: for and against, Cambridge University Press, 1973.

The Moral, Immersive, and Esoteric of Video Games

On this week's episode of With a Terrible Fate's podcast, join Aaron and Dan in a treacherous, invigorating relitigation of domains of video-game discourse with a reputation for being too messy and inert to matter to the ordinary gamer. The two main bugaboos on the agenda are "morality" and "immersion" in gaming. What does it mean for games to have moral content, and how can this content actually help to illuminate the many reasons we have for playing games rather than leading us into often distracting conversations about whether playing games at all is "good" or "bad"? And how might "immersion" distract us from the rich experiences games give us by dynamically playing with the distance between player and avatar, and telling stories about the changes in that distance?

Listen in to find out! Along the way, we alight on topics ranging from the value of video-game adaptations into television to the potential of games to provide players with mystic and esoteric experiences. We even make time to consider Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erdtree, and we break down how to read the philosophical debate over our emotional reactions to works of fiction—featuring exegesis of work from Aaron's undergraduate thesis adviser and mentor, Richard Moran.

Be on the lookout for spoiler-ish discussions of The Last of Us Parts 1 & 2, the TV adaptation of The Last of Us Part 1, Silent Hill 2, Tales of Hearts R, Elden Ring, and Shadow of the Erdtree (though spoilers focus more on Elden Ring than on Shadow of the Erdtree).

Works Referenced:

• Hughes, Dan (2017). "Does Silent Hill 2 Belong in the Video Game Canon?" With a Terrible Fate.
• Moran, Richard. (1994) “The Expression of Feeling in Imagination.” Philosophical Review 103.1, pp. 75-106.
• Suduiko, Aaron. (2017) "Guilt & Inequity in Silent Hill 2." With a Terrible Fate.
• — —. (2022) "How Elden Ring Turns Its Player into an Outer God." With a Terrible Fate.
• — —. (2023) "Tales of the Abyss, Kabbalah, and Gaming as a Spiritual Act." With a Terrible Fate.
• — —. (2024) "Why You Must Play Tales of Hearts R 389 Times." With a Terrible Fate.
• Walton, Kendall. (1978) “Fearing Fictions.” Journal of Philosophy 75.1, pp. 5-27.
• — —. (1990) Mimesis as make-believe: on the foundations of the representational arts. Cambridge: Harvard University. Print.

INSCRYPTION, Game Mothers, and Gaming Rituals

***WARNING: THIS EPISODE IS HAUNTED!*** The characters in the first game we discussed were haunting our podcasting software, so please excuse some small technical difficulties throughout the episode and a rather abrupt kickoff on account of a lost introduction. We jump directly into spoilers for Inscryption, a game that ought to be played without spoilers, so we strongly recommend only listening to this episode after playing! (Or, skip ahead to 45:30 to pass over this discussion.)

In a belated installment of the With a Terrible Fate podcast, Aaron and Dan travel back in time to Mother's Day 2024 in a discussion ranging from the horrifying, to the metafictional, to the maternal, to the personal. We kick things off (0:00:00) with a long-overdue debrief of Inscryption following Dan's completion of it and agree that it's something you simply have to discover for yourself—as well as being something that you absolutely must discuss with others who have experienced it! Later (0:45:30), we contemplate portraits of some memorable mothers from our gaming lives. Finally (0:52:54), we wrap things up with an exploration of how single-player gaming can include a range of rich, intersecting, real-life ritual practices, which can equip us to game more mindfully if only we can attend to those rituals in our conscious mind.

Be warned (again!) for thorough spoilers of Inscryption, along with some smaller structural spoilers for elements of (in the motherhood section) Tales of Eternia, Tales of Hearts R, Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch, Scarlet Nexus, Returnal, God of War & Ragnorok, and (in the ritual section) Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, along with some reprised spoilers for Inscryption.

Works Referenced

• Erin Waldram, "How Majora's Mask Teaches Us to Connect With All of Ourselves"
• Aaron Suduiko, "Why You Must Play Tales of Hearts R 389 Times"

Lies of P, Philosophical Catalysts, and Charitable Replays

On this episode of the With a Terrible Fate podcast, we celebrate Dan's birthday with a conversation ranging from becoming a real boy to becoming a... real old man!

We begin with a postgame analysis of Lies of P in which it takes Aaron and Dan a hilariously long time to uncover that, contrary to their first impression based on each other's perspective, they'd actually chosen different endings to the story! This lays the foundation for a discussion of how games' content can prompt philosophical dialogues between their players, revealing a wealth of hidden depth that makes Lies of P well worth the time of the thoughtful gamer—especially if she comes to it with a background in the oeuvre of Hidetaka Miyazaki.

Later, we turn to Dan's birthday as a context for revisiting formative childhood games we hated and striving to read them anew through the principle of charity, a core tenet of With a Terrible Fate's ethos. We articulate practical methods for approaching games from this perspective, including the distinction between asking what a game is "capital 'A' About" and what a game is "capital 'S' Saying." When we apply these methods to some of those first games that left a bad taste in our mouths, we argue, we have the opportunity not just to discover new value in an old game, but also to recontextualize our entire gaming history in the bargain.

Whether you're seeking new ways to evaluate the game you just finished or new values in the games you've been seething over for decades, this episode has something for you!

Works Referenced

• Dan Hughes, "Understanding Xemnas in Kingdom Hearts II," With a Terrible Fate. May 21, 2021.
• Richard Nguyen, "Beyond the Moral Binary: Decision-Making in Video Games," With a Terrible Fate. April 25, 2016.
• Enrico Pasini, "Leibniz's Dissatisfaction with the Cogito," G.W. Leibniz: Razón, Verdad y Diálogo, edited by Juan Antonio Nicolás, Alejandro Herrera, Roberto Casales, Luis Velasco, Leonardo Ruiz, and Alfredo Martinez (Colección Nova Leibniz / Latina 5), Granada: Editorial Comares 2023, p. 35–48. Author's manuscript; open access.
• Aaron Suduiko, "The Horror of Code Vein is You," With a Terrible Fate. November 22, 2020.
• — —, "Scarlet Nexus: The Pathos of Karen Travers," With a Terrible Fate. November 8, 2021.
• — —, "The Tragic Irony of Final Fantasy XIII-2," With a Terrible Fate. November 29, 2016.

Fairy Tales, Fantasies, and Fourth Walls

This week, With a Terrible Fate's podcast is a romp ranging from adaptation to serialized storytelling to metafiction. We kick off discussing Lies of P in the contexts of Pinocchio, Miyazaki-inspired games, and philosophically-minded stories as Aaron nears the conclusion of his first playthrough. (He's since wrapped this up, so stay tuned for overall first impressions!) Later, Dan presents his latest views on how to read the eras and progress of Final Fantasy as a series, inspired by his latest journeys through Final Fantasy VII Rebirth and Final Fantasy XVI, and in conversation with Aaron's current work on the Tales of series in Tales of Praxis. Finally, we both wrestle with the relationship between a game's fourth wall, metafictional storytelling, and how to involve a player without disenfranchising the story's characters—as well as how our views in this area have changed over the years.

Mind the spoilers for the whole Final Fantasy series, the Tales of series, Lies of P, BioShock, The Stanley Parable, NieR, and Undertale!

Check out With a Terrible Fate's publications on many of the games in this discussion, such as: Final Fantasy, Tales of, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Code Vein, BioShock, The Stanley Parable, NieR, and Undertale.

PAX East 2024, Second-Chance Games, and Perilous Platinums

This week on With a Terrible Fate's podcast, we celebrate the communities, black sheep, and arduous challenges of gaming! We begin with Aaron breaking down With a Terrible Fate's lecture on bosses at PAX East last month, along with broader reflections on everything from cosplays to upcoming indie games you won't want to miss. All the talk of bosses leads us to Dark Souls II, one of the subjects of the lecture, inviting a broader discussion of why games which you or a fandom didn't initially enjoy can oftentimes be the most rewarding "new game plus" experiences. Then, with Dark Souls on the brain, we consider what may be the "Dark Souls" of platinum trophy experiences: Dan's journey to get the platinum on Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, what it means to the game, and how we find value in achievements more broadly. Finally, we round things out with a discussion of our current gaming adventures, including Dan's experience of Japanese history in Rise of the Rōnin and Aaron's Chekhovian madness on the way to the climax of Tales of Xillia.

Be on the lookout for spoilers regarding the Dark Souls series, Final Fantasy VII Remake and Rebirth,  Rise of the Rōnin, Nioh, and Tales of Xillia.

Articles Cited:

• With a Terrible Fate at PAX East 2018: "How Games are Changing Serialized Storytelling"

• Aaron Suduiko: "The Language of Trophies in Final Fantasy VII Remake"

 

First Thoughts on Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

This week on With a Terrible Fate's podcast, Aaron and Dan take a deep breath and dive into their very first, unfiltered, spoiler-rich thoughts about Final Fantasy VII Rebirth. Save this episode until you've finished the main scenario and are ready to dig into its microscopic and macrocosmic implications! We're already eagerly planning new analyses centered on this latest addition to the Final Fantasy VII corpus, consistent with the spirit and approach of The Legacy of Final Fantasy VII Remake.

Ahead of the Rebirth roundtable, we also anticipate With a Terrible Fate's lecture at PAX East 2024, which took place this past weekend! (The podcast was produced ahead of the convention.) We were overjoyed to engage a wonderful audience of hundreds of thoughtful, passionate gamers on the topic of bosses' interactive and narrative content over the course of almost three hours, and we're delighted to welcome many of these newcomers into the broader With a Terrible Fate community. Unfortunately, we encountered some unexpected recording issues and only walked away with partial footage from the lecture, but we're excited to share as much as we can with the entirety of our audience in one form or another in the near future. Stay tuned!

How to Get to Know a Video-Game Character

On this special edition of the With a Terrible Fate podcast just ahead of analyst Dan Hughes' wedding, Dan and Aaron wrestle with the marvelously multifaceted problem of how we can best come to understand the nature of characters in our favorite video games. What draws us to specific protagonists in party-based games? How can game-based conflict actually help us to better appreciate the characters that have been cast as bosses? How do game attributes like player choice and ludicrously long playtimes make it possible to know and support characters in ways unavailable to the heroes of books and film? What light can our favorite games shed on key moments in our lives, such as a wedding? Listen in to answer all these questions and more!

Articles Cited:
• Dan Hughes, "Understanding Xemnas in Kingdom Hearts II"

• Aaron Suduiko, "The Philosophical Justification for FromSoftware's DLC"